Guest of the program "Nemtsov. Interview "- a Russian gallery owner and in the past a political technologist Marat Gelman. In 2013, he was forced to resign from the post of director of the State Museum of Modern Art PERMM in Perm, created on his initiative. In 2015, for formal reasons, the Contemporary Art Center "Winzavod" in Moscow canceled the lease with his gallery "Cultural Alliance". Since 2014, Marat Gelman lives and works in Montenegro. In Kotor he develops his own art project Dukley European Art Community.

Gelman told Nemtsova why the Russians in Montenegro for joining the country in NATO, about the spoiled relations with Russia and the principles of aikido in the fight against Russian President Vladimir Putin, writes DW.

Zhanna Nemtsova: Rosturizm urged tour operators to inform the Russians planning tours to Montenegro about possible risks. Earlier, the official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry Maria Zakharova said about the unfavorable situation in the country. What are the risks?.

Marat Gelman: The last two weeks, Russian media are spreading lies about Montenegro. I understand that it is necessary to promote Sochi and Crimea. But it's not good to lie. This is one of the commandments. Everyone who participates in this campaign will go to hell. Montenegro is a beautiful, absolutely safe country with a very good climate and an interesting history. Montenegro is the only country in Europe where the Russians get a business.

- Perhaps, this rhetoric is caused by the fact that Montenegro should become a member of NATO until the end of spring. Is this the right decision for the country?.

- I would not want to interfere in their affairs. I believe that a country that has an army of 1,200 people can not independently ensure its security. Therefore, the answer is yes. The Montenegrins think like this: "We are entering NATO, we are becoming part of the European global world. This gives a signal to investors that we are a normal country with normal legislation ". Most of the Russians living and developing business in Montenegro were for joining NATO, because it would make their business more expensive. In addition, the plans for Montenegro - European integration, that is, accession to the EU.

- You worked all your life in Russia and cooperated with state structures, in particular, were the director of the Museum of Modern Art in Perm PERMM. But at some point something went wrong. Do you understand when we crossed the double solid in relations with the state? You yourself said that you tried not to provoke a negative in your address, being the director of the state museum. Do not do exhibitions dedicated to Putin, Kadyrov, Chechnya.

- I am quite a lot and fruitfully, I thought, cooperated with the authorities. I was a member of the "big government" under Medvedev, was a member of the Public Chamber. I was engaged in decentralization. But for any art there are some immutable things. First: people want to be open to the world, not closed. Second: they want to look to the future, not to the past. During the last term of Putin, the word "modernization". Even before Gelman was expelled from the museum.

- But I'm asking about specific actions.

- The concrete first act after the victory of Putin - this is the case of Pussy Riot. When they began to be persecuted, I was the only one among the leaders of major cultural institutions who stood up for their protection. Then, together with my friend, Sasha Cheparukhin, we organized international support. It turned out that my relations with the authorities began to pour down. Then they even told me that some bodies brought documents to Volodin (Vyacheslav Volodin at that time was the first deputy head of the presidential administration of Russia - ed.. Ostensibly wanted to prove that Gelman created Pussy Riot. This, in fact, the absolute nonsense. I was only acquainted with them haplessly, but really met when they were already released from prison.

- Marat, you talked with representatives of the presidential administration, with representatives of big business: this is Sergey Gordeev, and Alexander Mamut. And now you have been thrown out of this system. Do you feel better or worse?.

- Of course better. When I continue to speak unflattering things about what is happening in Russia, I am not insulted in me. What happened to me is a miracle and luck. I have a new project. If now everything would be fine in Russia, and I would be offered such an interesting project (in Montenegro - Ed.. ), I would still take it for him.

- It's not about projects. I believe that some people just stopped communicating with you. For them, it became toxic.

- Certainly. Someone got really hands on the presidential administration. Gelman the enemy. Someone from caution himself moved away. They made their choice. I can even understand them sometimes, feel sorry for them. The fact is that in art one does not have to be a hero. Here he goes to the soldiers - he must be a hero. Politicians should be heroes. But the artist does not have to be a hero. His behavior is his choice. Another question is that compromise for art is fatal.

- In 2018 presidential elections will be held in Russia. If you were tasked with discrediting Putin, what would you advise?.

- Oh, No. I do not want. The fact is that this language - to discredit is the language of political power technologists today, because they do not have the strongest tool - to convey the truth. I believe that the opposition should not discredit anyone.

- Do not discredit, but tell what can change attitude to this figure.

- We have several persons involved. Power - a figurant, Navalny - a figurant, loyal opposition, for example, also a figurant. Power is a stronger actor than everyone else. Under such conditions, any strategy should be an aikido strategy. That is, you can not win unless you use the power of the authorities themselves. You must make sure that the authorities choose you the main enemy. And only then you will become strong. Only the efforts of the presidential administration itself can destroy Putin. The task of becoming a mirror, becoming a tool in this situation. Of course, there are several considerations about what is happening now. For example, the fight against corruption, which was launched by Alexey Navalny. She has pros and cons.

- Tell us about the cons.

- The main disadvantage is that anger against corrupt people is very easily transformed into anger against the rich. It is very dangerous. Today we are against all the stolen "Mercedes", houses and so on. But it's easy to make it so that everyone will be against everyone in general. It is very dangerous. If you do not think about this problem, do not understand it, then it can cover, including Alexei himself. Plus, the Navalny campaign forces the authorities to play in advance, to try to fight corruption and cut the branch on which it sits. The fact is that Putin seems that this corruption is a disease on the body of his power. And he decides to fight with her, and not let others. But the fact is that corruption is the very body of this power. Kordonsky (Simon Kordonsky - Russian sociologist, professor of the Higher School of Economics - Ed.. ) Also very accurately formulates. He says that with the distribution system ... - When the oil rent is distributed through the state.

- Yes, when it, and not income taxes, is the basis of the country's wealth, then, in fact, corruption becomes an indispensable element. Not an obligatory, but the easiest instrument for distributing this rent. And, fighting corruption, you can just steal the entire system of power. And in this sense it is very good if the government itself takes up this matter and itself somehow bites.

- Imagine that the era of Putin ended in Russia and you were invited as curator of an exhibition that will be called conditionally "Russia after Putin". Which of the artists will you invite?.

- The list of artists does not change. In the country there are bright and interesting artists with different views. An ingenious artist Dmitry Gutov - a Communist. He must participate in the exhibition. Belyaev-Gintovt - patriot, monarchist almost. The point is not to change black to white. And in that there was a common cultural environment. Strictly speaking, we had it, but only in the Medinsky era did the schism begin on its own and others', on banned and un-forbidden.

The first thing I would do is start urgently to restore all those international ties that were broken. That is, we must again become the most international artistic environment.

Second, of course, I would try to reflect on those issues that today are not solved purely in a political and economic way. For example, the situation with Ukraine. Unfortunately, the absolute conformism of our artistic environment. Chose the strategy of "not touching". Sadly, our artistic environment has gone along this path. It is clear that this is a comfortable situation. Well, then, guys, we must go back.

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